#21 How Product Placement Works in Film Production | Tami Cooper Interview

Updated: Aug 14



Tami Cooper, President of Hollywood International Placements, Inc. shares with Tanya the role that product placement agencies play in film production, including working on preparing sets, getting brand deals and product clearance. She also shares advice on how filmmakers can work with brands in their films, how to approach product placement agencies and where to find props and other staging materials. 


Listen to Tami share the intricacies that come from working with brands on set, getting their clearance and working with production to provide adequate representation.  


Show links: 

Hollywoodprops.com Set Decorator Society of America: setdecorators.org

Debbie’s Book: https://thesourcebookonline.com/

Key points: 1:11 How she got started

2:34 What Product Placement International does

4:25 Conflict between paid and un-paid advertising

5:00 Working with different departments & getting clearance

6:54 Working with films vs. network television

8:00 How much it costs to have product placement services

9:50 What product placement means

11:21 Steps for filmmakers to get product integration in their films

13:00 Using product placement deals to finance films

15:00 The importance of product clearance in sets

17:00 What to look for in Product Placement Companies

17:38 The ideal deals between films and product placement companies

19:41 The future of product placement 

21:36 Product use vs. product placement

23:18 Ideal timing to submit your deck to product placement companies

25:00 Setting up sets outside of LA

25:49 Opportunities for indie filmmakers

26:47 How to find product placement companies

27:10 Getting in touch with Tami Cooper

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Full transcript:

Tami Cooper (00:00):

Gwyneth Paltrow put a condom on a cucumber on Glee, believe it or not. And the clearance was this thick. Because health companies don't want you to ever use something that's not correct with their brand. And even though it was a condom and we didn't even see a logo, it was a big deal.


Tanya Musgrave (00:17):

Welcome to There to Here an educational podcast where industry professionals talk nuts and bolts on how they got from there to here. On today's show Tami Cooper, president of Hollywood International Placements, Inc. takes us into brand integration, product placement and how filmmakers can work with these agencies to market products in film and television.


Tanya Musgrave (00:35):

As this is a new podcast we're really wanting feedback, so go to media.CoLabinc.org, fill out the feedback survey and you'll be entered to win a $25 Amazon gift card. From CoLab Inc. I'm Tanya Musgrave, and today we have Tami Cooper, the president of Hollywood International Placements, Inc. Which works product placement, brand integration and marketing for film and television, as well as events. Welcome to the show.


Tami Cooper (00:58):

Hi.


Tanya Musgrave (00:59):

This side of things is a bit of unchartered territory for me, I'm usually kind of more acquainted with the production side of things. How did you get from there to here?


Tami Cooper (01:11):

Well, I majored in business, had an accounting degree. I worked at a CPA firm and one of my clients was in product placement, almost three decades ago. So I'm a people person and accounting just really wasn't my cup of tea. I kind of got into it from the father, CPA. And she goes, "You're a natural at this." Because I was a shopaholic, a brand person, Valley girl.


Tami Cooper (01:36):

Raised in LA all my life, around the entertainment industry, but I never wanted to be in the entertainment industry. I wanted to go in the financial world. So I got pulled in kind of that way. And basically I'm also a member of SAG and AFTRA, I've finally become like an actress doing voiceover on shows like Ray Donovan. So we love to support the shows that obviously, yeah, we know people we have closer relationships with and things like that.


Tanya Musgrave (02:00):

With your particular background and not necessarily having a background in film. Was it that hard of a transition?


Tami Cooper (02:06):

I want to say, I backed my way self into the industry and knowing production and working because it then came a branding world. And we started out, there was just faxes in the industry and Polaroids, like I remember going to set and taking Polaroids. You can imagine that transition over the years. Emails didn't even attach photos or you couldn't even send a video over an email. So that's how long we've been in the industry.


Tanya Musgrave (02:30):

Tell me a little bit more about what your industry does specifically.


Tami Cooper (02:34):

Basically we go after... We have relationships with brands and we bring them to the table. So we have a client list that has like Blue Diamond Almonds on it. Sierra Nevada beer, Haircare Altieri, Love Every Body, Tea Energy, all kinds of things. From cosmetics, food products to simple human, little trash cans on your desk. You know? So there's so many things on set. Everything on sets has to be legally cleared and give them permission to use. So by using a product placement agency, we save them time and energy because they don't have time to contact every product that's on their set and get a legal form that says, "Well, you are allowed to show Blue Diamond on the set of the Conners, ABC TV." By coming to us, we saved them all that legal clearance and permissions.


Tanya Musgrave (03:25):

Okay. So that sounds like a little bit of like a Mobius strip. Like which side comes first when it comes to that process. Is it more along the lines of you look at stuff that they've already shot?


Tami Cooper (03:38):

We're up there from pre-production, as soon as the scripts come out or like we'll get calls even from crews saying "We don't even have our script yet, but we know we're shooting a diner, we're shooting a grocery store. So tell me what you have. And by the way, we don't haven't even had the cast yet." Sometimes we don't even have the final cast, but we'll get this script so we can break it down. It's called a breakdown, and you go through it and look for the product placement opportunities. And then also things get scratched or they add in other scenes, as they're writing scripts. TV is like a script will come out on Monday or they'll get it like the Friday, they'll shoot it that Friday. And then they wrap up the set that Friday night and they're dressing next Monday, the next show. So it's really fast.


Tami Cooper (04:20):

So they work those 12 hour, 15 hour, 20 hour days. And the crews are really the nuts and bolts of a set because they're the ones striking it, putting it back up, having the actors come in, rehearse on Monday, Tuesday, then they have to get it approved by the networks. So it's a whole process. And when it comes to branding, they have to watch out for their direct advertisers because there's not paid placements on network television. But they do have, they're paid for advertising. The big Fortune 500 companies. So they don't want to get them upset by having something that might conflict.


Tanya Musgrave (04:53):

Interesting.


Tami Cooper (04:54):

Kirsten Bell might have a deal with Neutrogena, so she might not want a L'Oreal or one of my Clarins Cosmetics in a scene. So you have to make sure as a prop man, if it's a hands on, if they're actually using a product, if it's in my hand, like I'll just use my Sierra Nevada, as an example. So they're holding it. It's property master department. But if it's sitting on a counter that set dressing. So there's two departments we work with just for set and prop.


Tami Cooper (05:22):

I mean, unless it's a small production, but in general network television it's property department you work with. Set decorating, and then you deal with legal clearance and permissions. They have a thing that they need to get approved, especially magazines, believe it or not, ARE one of the biggest things. Because you have the photographer image that you have to have cleared. Sometimes you have a celebrity on the cover and then you also have the publication. So there's three levels of clearance with a magazine.


Tami Cooper (05:45):

And it could be laying flat on a set and nobody even sees it, but you still need a document clearing that product.


Tanya Musgrave (05:50):

Wow. How long of a process is that?


Tami Cooper (05:54):

I mean, we've also worked with and lube and funny scenes. Gwyneth Paltrow put a condom on a cucumber on Glee believe it or not. And the clearance was like this thick, because health companies don't want you to ever use something that's not correct with their brand. And even though it was a condom, we didn't even see a logo it was a big deal. And it was shot and it was already in the can. So it just went through.


Tanya Musgrave (06:20):

So how long did that take? Are you talking like weeks or months or?


Tami Cooper (06:24):

A week to two weeks. I mean, sometimes clearance takes longer in movies when you have time. But they have to get things cleared in order to use them to shoot. So it's usually a week.


Tanya Musgrave (06:36):

All right. So you had mentioned that there are no paid placements on network television.


Tami Cooper (06:40):

That there had been, but normally it's not. There's a big rule with shooting network television.


Tanya Musgrave (06:46):

Do you work with films much?


Tami Cooper (06:48):

Yes.


Tanya Musgrave (06:49):

What's the difference, I guess, between network and film, are there many differences?


Tami Cooper (06:54):

There's a whole department at major studios called production resources. And they are looking for deals all the time. They do like Ford deals. They do Ford and Ferrari to use that as an example. Like obviously it was written into the script. So we have organic placements where obviously Ford and Ferrari, but then you'll see like champagne or it could be a beer client, a water client. Obviously there were payments there.


Tami Cooper (07:18):

And they don't disclose those, but you can kind of tell sometimes. And it varies. Sometimes they're organic. Sometimes it's an integration. Sometimes there's a full circle. Like Marvel will come to us and say, we want an integration be done. And they have strict... Because it's Disney. They have strict nutritional requirements on the food products, for instance, that are involved. So they'll want a media buy. They'll want print advertising, they'll want licensing, they'll want in store promotions. They'll want print promotions. Then they'll want maybe some direct advertising promotions. So there can be a full circle that's related to the product placement.


Tanya Musgrave (07:55):

How much would a filmmaker expect to have to pay for these kinds of services or be paid for some of these placements?


Tami Cooper (08:03):

The big studios obviously have legal departments and people set up in departments just doing this all day long. And so there's the independent versus the larger studios. So it varies. So they pay production people to work doing product placement, and then they also want to raise money on the back end of the production for a product placement. And they send out decks saying, "This opportunity is available. Please send us out a deal memo if your client's interested." So we'll take like a client and say, "Oh, do you want to pay for this? We can start at 50 grand. If they don't accept that maybe 75." They'll move it up to, depending on the placement.


Tanya Musgrave (08:39):

Like say I'm an independent filmmaker and I'm wanting Blue Diamond in my film. Which one is more feasible. Like the one of me asking blue diamond, if they want to sponsor part of my film or is it me paying Blue Diamond to have them in my film?


Tami Cooper (08:57):

It depends on the film because some companies are very conservative. And as you know today, there's a lot of vulgarity, corporate clients don't want that. They don't want drug use. So it has to be the kind of film that fits their marketing image, which is usually very conservative on that side of the realm. And there are some companies that are edgier, but most of the time you would come to an agency and either talk to the PR firm, if they don't have a product placement agency or an agency. And then we go to them. Because you don't have time to reach all these marketing people. They're very busy. They have a set schedule. They plan ahead for like a year sometimes. So that's why with the major studios, they come out, they start shooting a film. Sometimes they don't release it for a whole year. So we have plenty of time to work that deal in, they're interested in.


Tanya Musgrave (09:45):

Am I even using the terminology right? Is it a sponsorship or is it like a placement?


Tami Cooper (09:49):

We like to come integrations, deals, memos, branding agreements. There are different terms and they're used very loosely and they've evolved. Like I remember there was a movie on product placement and even talked about it. So it's kind of been used so poorly, the word product placement that it's gotten a bunch of new meetings. And we still refer to product placement is getting the product to set that's it a general product placement agency. Whereas other people think "Oh, I'm going to do this film. And I'm going to get all this money for product placement." Usually it doesn't work like that. I know a lot of times they come back to me and say, "Well, we just want clearance to use the products. We're not asking for any money anymore." And it just depends on how organized you are with your decks and getting them out to the right people in the industry.


Tami Cooper (10:34):

We have Entertainment Resources Marketing Association that used to be very active and where people could contact all the agencies. And now there's so many different people working product placement that you have to go out to so many different levels of agencies sometimes. So it's relationships, it's timing. Timing is everything. Like to call me on August 4th and say, "We're shooting on August 11. Do you think any of your clients will want to pay?" I mean that's very hard, especially in COVID-19 times to reach the person and get someone to cut a check because they're just not making decisions quickly like that. And they have to really want that project.


Tanya Musgrave (11:16):

What is the first step for a filmmaker to integrate into their plan?


Tami Cooper (11:21):

I think to prepare like a PowerPoint with... Ideally you have your cast, so you have your contracts with your cast, you have the script approved, you have your funding and you have a timeframe that we know we're going to start shooting or projected shoot day is this day. So then you have a timeframe to know your strategy, to have it contact people, to even put this in front of their face. Because you have five minutes with marketing people to even get them interested.


Tami Cooper (11:52):

So you have to kind of get them hyped up and say, "You need to take this to the powers that be and see if they're interested in putting any money into this film. This might be great for you. You could use it on your website after the films released, obviously, because you can't allow that type of thing." But you can structure the contracts and make them work for you.


Tami Cooper (12:08):

We want five verbals. If we're going to pay for this, we want our products shown definitely for this amount of time and this amount of seconds. Because you don't control camera. So there's a lot of times deals are made and then it hits the editing floor and you don't have control over that part of the art. So there's even make goods that happen. Like when people are saying "We paid for this, we only got this." And then you say, "Okay, I'm going to put you in this other film." So there's those types of things that happened organically or naturally in the world of art, because everybody has different components of a film. And a director and an actor might say, I'm not doing that unless they pay me. We've had those type of deals happen. They don't want to have it in their hand. They don't want to represent this without... Because the show's getting the money, not the actor in this case.


Tanya Musgrave (12:53):

So LA has some of the most obscure businesses surrounding props. Like I remember our narrative portions when we were shooting... We rented like fake books. Like it was a whole business centered around these foam filled books. Like they're even businesses that sell props or like big shows. Like, so the awesome part of your job is that you can have the props and get sponsorships, but at what point can it be considered an actual viable financing option for your film?


Tami Cooper (13:20):

Well, that's a good question. I really don't do the budgets and shoot the films. So to answer that, I probably should go to a producer. I know that they look for deals. Like let's just use like Californication for an example at showtime. They would do deals with a car company, say like maybe a vape machine, an alcohol company. So they get it to offset their budgets. They spend a lot of money on a lot of things. So it just brings down their entire budget. which you're always trying to do as a producer. On a film when you're trying to raise money before you start shooting, like to actually do a film based upon a product placement revenue. I think that you should definitely have some other avenues of revenue before you just rely fully on product placement. I know it's been done.


Tanya Musgrave (14:15):

Really?


Tami Cooper (14:15):

Yeah. I mean, I would say really small films too. Maybe $100,000, $300,000. It's more of an offset to your whole production cost. That's how I would say that you should definitely be very conservative in this world. Because you know how your fees can go. I would not rely totally on product placement. I'm mostly working on major, major, major budgets. So I'm just... It's an offset and we just saved them time and energy for dressing these sets. Because we do kitchen appliances. We've done so many... We've done furniture. We've done, if they're doing a retail scene, we've been like whole store instead of them having to rent it or buy it, we're getting it delivered for free to their location. And it's easier for them to like to have an empty area than it is to have someone to clear every product that possibly could be shown.


Tami Cooper (15:04):

Even if it's blurry in the background, you're legally supposed to have it signed off on. Like, okay, I'll use this as an example. Hangover, the first hangover with the fighter guy who has a tattoo, Tyson. Okay so he had a tattoo. So they got clearance from his agent to like show the image of... Because Tyson had it, it was a Tyson thing, I guess. But guess who they didn't clear it from?The artist who did the initial tattoo. So there's things like that that happened. Like there's famous stories where they then go to the studio and like are very upset about the fact that they weren't cleared and then they sue them. So there's people that constantly make sure that they're not going to get sued for brands and images on sets. Like all the artwork on a set has to be cleared by the artist.


Tami Cooper (15:51):

So there's art rental houses that just rent art to the studios. And or sometimes they sell to, but most of the time it's a rental because they save money and they have it on the set and then it's scrapped and then they return it to the rental houses. So we have art rental houses, we have book rental houses, we have toy rental houses. So there's all these things, like they show periods too. If you're doing a period piece, especially. To find the antique things that really establish us that in a period of shooting.


Tanya Musgrave (16:20):

So you guys are the ones doing the negotiating and the contracting rather than the filmmaker themselves. You're saving them time.


Tami Cooper (16:28):

Yeah. And they also have a... Sometimes they have a clearance person or product placement person that strictly deals with that on a set all day long and make sure that everything is cleared and they have paperwork on everything.


Tanya Musgrave (16:41):

All right. Say I wanted to employ a product placement or brand integration company as the filmmaker to save all my time and everything. What are some warning bells for filmmakers to look out for when negotiating with a company that does that? Like, is there any particular line in a contract that should be a cause for pause?


Tami Cooper (17:04):

No, you want global rights. Because you don't know where this film will end up. So it could be on the internet. It could end up being an international distribution. And you've got to to make sure you say global rights forever and ever. And that type of thing in the contract. I remember a long time ago, they didn't mention global. Because we kind of knew like most of the things that we're going to air and domestically would stay domestic unless they got an international deal. And then they kind of get that signed off on. Everybody wants to global now. It's a global world.


Tanya Musgrave (17:34):

What would be an ideal setup for both the company and the filmmaker then?


Tami Cooper (17:38):

When a brand wants a certain market, it could be Black Lives Matters market then obviously to get companies that want to align themselves with those type of movements. So it's also like the children's industry, women. They're targeting women. So there's different areas, but most of the time you want it to go to all demographics. So you can get brands that really want to be associated with certain celebrities. So that's another way, or certain type of events where like I was saying, sometimes people don't mind vulgarity. As we know, the F word is used like everyday word now. So they have to be able to want that. And a lot of times they don't. Because they're conservative. Or sometimes they're edgy and they're like, "Yeah, let's go for it." You know? And then sometimes there's violence, even if there's no vulgarity. So there are guns, sometimes they're anti-gun.


Tami Cooper (18:28):

So a lot of times there are guns shown and blood and gore and all that. So has to be a brand where you align them together. And the animal rights thing with cosmetics and not testing on animals. Like I've had products thrown off... I'll stay for like the set decorator on Two and a Half Men and [Shea 00:18:43]. Like she knows, I bought an eyelash bang and make your eyelashes grow. And she's like, "Take that off my set. They tested on animals." And I'm like, I didn't even think of that. You know?


Tami Cooper (18:54):

So there's things have come up like that. So yeah, I really think it's the timing and the planning and the relationship that the agency has with the marketing people that you can capitalize on by having your ducks in order with your presentation to the agency. Because like I said, even like, we get so busy I go, "Where's the deck. Oh, there it is." And I'm like, "Okay, where do we get to the fees? And who's in this?" And they're like, sometimes they'll send me a deck without a person .I'm like, well, please just send this back to me when you have it cast. Because obviously the first thing that a client's going to ask us, "Who's in it? Do we want to be associated with that talent?"


Tanya Musgrave (19:30):

You're talking about how things have evolved, like with the climate of the industry where it is right now, how have things been picking up again? Like what are you seeing on the horizon for how this is going to go from here on out?


Tami Cooper (19:41):

Well, I think there'll always be general product placement, product placement agencies. Because we're like a small niche and we've all been around for years. But I really feel like now digitally, they can go in and put brands in as we know. They always said, this is funny on Friends, "That one day we'll be able to click on Jennifer Aniston's dress and go right to it." So we have had the internet and TV try to interact. But guess what the biggest problem is, I think it was at the time was AOL or one of those. They were kind of like going to work with studio and then everybody wants something.


Tami Cooper (20:14):

And I think they sold flat screens at the end of one Friends episode. And they only sold like 30,000. This is like when flat screen TVs still like weighed a ton, you know? But they were expecting a lot more, it was called click and buy. So the click and buy thing has never really happened to the level that it really should. I mean, I'm talking even with Access Hollywood, sometimes I'll see an outfit. I'm like, I wonder what brand that is, you know? And I'm like, we should be able to just scroll over, even ask our TVs, what dress is Jennifer Aniston wearing? And it should tell you and like interact with you more. So that's the thing is you have so many hands in the pie. Sometimes it doesn't work.


Tanya Musgrave (20:52):

How interesting would that be. Because that's kind of how on any film that you through on Prime, if you pause it it'll automatically bring up every actor that is on the screen in that scene at that particular time.


Tami Cooper (21:05):

But not the brands, right?


Tanya Musgrave (21:06):

But not the brands.


Tami Cooper (21:07):

And you know, there are so many, I've seen them, so many agencies pop up where they say, "We're going to be able to walk on set and we're going to be able to show you the light fixture and the couch and who made that." It never happens. And they spent millions of dollars like with these cameras and things. Then, again, I think they do like a couple shows and it just dies. So they tried to do it. But you think with the internet working so closely with network television it's still not there.


Tanya Musgrave (21:36):

We have some listener questions from our Insta, Facebook and Twitter. If you want to ask your questions to future guests, our handle on Insta and Twitter is CoLab INC Podcast. So when does a switch from product to use, go to product placement? AKA, when are they paying you to use a brand over you, paying them or having to use generic things?


Tami Cooper (21:55):

Basically that's why our clients come to us is because we get their brands on without them paying a production. So that's why they use a product placement agency. Because it's basically we have the relationships and it saves them time and energy. They don't have time to employ someone to go around basically to find all these production companies. Where so many popups like they're here today, gone tomorrow. You know, they don't want a product that doesn't look right.


Tanya Musgrave (22:21):

So this might be the same question, but like when can you keep a logo of a brand that you work with and when should you worry about it? Like, I've seen people obsessively, Greeking out stuff on set. Like if it's a Heinz bottle and stuff, but. Or it's so blatantly obvious as it's like sitting right next to the camera, that kind of thing. But as a filmmaker, should I be worried about every single thing that's on set. But like where's the line between where I can use things and get permission or I have to pay to have this in my film or they could actually pay me?


Tami Cooper (22:59):

Well, as long as you have permission to use it, by going through an agency you're cleared. So that's legal clearance and permission. So they sign off on global rights. They might say specifically, we don't want... You have to use it in the way that it should be used.


Tanya Musgrave (23:18):

You had mentioned that you were there at the very, very beginning of the whole entire process. So you're working with these clients. At what point within the pre-production process, you even said people would send you decks without even actors attached yet. When is the most ideal time?


Tami Cooper (23:35):

I think once you get your financing and once you sign your actors. It makes me think of the most famous product placement thing is ET. Reese's pieces were because Mars turned that placement down. So they invented Reese's pieces for that movie. And as you can know, ET, I mean, everybody, I think they were a little upset once they see the Reese's Pieces came out and have never gone away because of that movie. The earlier the better, I mean, especially if you want to raise revenue and you need the time and you need to get the right brands with the right entities.


Tanya Musgrave (24:10):

The last question that I have for you is what questions should I have asked you?


Tami Cooper (24:17):

What new brands are coming out? Once again, like a lot of PR firms, advertising firms claim they do product placement, but we're really like a niche group of people that break down scripts on a daily basis, send out our client list, clear things all the time. I'm just signing legal clearance documents. So I know that when a lot of marketing firms say they do product placements, usually like one or two films a year, whereas we have dedicated agencies that do that. Like the proper rental houses.


Tanya Musgrave (24:49):

So, I did have another question then. So what if they are setting up a film and say, Atlanta, would I still be employing an agency like yours out in LA or?


Tami Cooper (25:00):

A lot of their art department, people and clearance people are in LA. And they work just remotely. Now with COVID, because of all the new requirements, it's going to be all deliveries, not taking clients to set. Like, I used to take clients to set all the time. I'm not even going to set a lot of times. But we ship to Atlanta. We shipped to Canada for shoots. A lot of times we've taken... They'll load up the truck here, that's going to Ireland and they'll load up like props here and then they ship it overseas. So that happens a lot too.


Tanya Musgrave (25:35):

Gotcha. Gotcha. So for filmmakers, who are indie, are there particular prop rental houses that are more for like smaller, independent companies or they will work with anybody even first time filmmakers?


Tami Cooper (25:49):

They'll work with anybody. And I mean, they'll have relationships obviously with the biggest studios in town. Alpha Omega just moved downtown. I went to their new facility. It is like literally a museum. It is so huge, with every piece of furniture, every chandelier. They have a huge, huge inventory, like enormously huge. It's a block long, and five stories high. And they have to have ample parking. They're right by LA Times building. They're absolutely huge. I think they might be the biggest gap. And then there's specialty places that have more period. Things are like the History For Hire has-


Tanya Musgrave (26:28):

History for hire, we used those.


Tami Cooper (26:29):

Yeah. So there's certain places that won't have those types of items. So you constantly have to go to your specialty places.


Tanya Musgrave (26:37):

I'm curious then how people find you or agencies, is it like more on IMDB Pro or is it more along the lines of just Googling?


Tami Cooper (26:47):

Googling, there's Debbie's Books, there's Creative Handbook or film guide books, the old fashion, take it to set. Don't have to have a monitor in front of you. It can go through. And then the Set Decorator Society of America. We have a huge business resource and member resource directory on there, which you can log onto that. It's setdecorators.org, and it's a huge resource.


Tanya Musgrave (27:10):

Amazing. So how can people find you.


Tami Cooper (27:13):

I'm in a lot of these directories and then it's a lot of word of mouth. When you have a relationships for a long time. I'm Hollywoodprops.com. So I think I come up there. I don't actually try to be the biggest. I was probably the first product placement agency on the internet and have my client list out there. Because a lot of times they were very secretive about your clients. Right now they're out there and there's Branding Entertainment Network that does huge things. So there's a lot of resources now on the internet, of course.


Tanya Musgrave (27:44):

Well, you have been extremely educational. I didn't know a thing about any of this. Thank you so much for your time.


Tami Cooper (27:52):

Thank you. And I look forward to hearing from you again.


Tanya Musgrave (27:54):

Thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this interview, follow us right here and check out more episodes at media.coLabINC.org. If you have comments or know someone who would be a great guest on our show, send in your suggestions to Tanya@coLabINC.org. Tami, thanks again so much for your time be well, and God bless. We'll see you next time on There to Here.



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